Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:54 pm

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I'm a big fan of New Zealand music. What I'm not a big fan of is the plethora of unknown bands on this site talking up a whole mess of bullshit about themselves. One band profile I read said they've been 'taking the underground kiwi rock scene by storm'. I go to gigs all the time, especially in Auckland and I've never fucking heard of them or the bands they gig with. This is either a fucking lie or they are so underground that I must have walked over them. If I was in a band I'd hope that I wouldn't have to make up crap about myself to get some attention.

Just once I'd like to read an honest artist profile that told it like it was:

1. The only people who turn up to our gigs are our mates and the mates of the other bands we're playing with.

- If this is still the case after 6+ years, it's as good a sign as any that nobody gives a fuck.

2. Radio stations won't play our music unless we or our friends ring or email the radio station ourselves pretending to be lots of different people.

- If you have to ask to have your song played, then neither the radio station or it's listeners give a fuck about you or your music.

3. We are a bunch of fucking dreamers who've put a lot of years into our band and can't let go or face up the fact that we're never going to make it.

- Think about it! All of the bands in New Zealand that are popular now were popular after about 2-3 years of being together. Someone once said to me 'yeah but Hootie and The Blowfish were together for 12 years before they got signed'. Ok, but Hootie and the Blowfish had one hit single and then dissapeared back into the mediocre quagmire of shit that they came from never to be heard of again.

I dare someone to write something 'real' about themselves and their music!

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:47 pm

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and then, "nobodies" like David Bowie or the Datsuns who spent years playing to two people and a dog, should have, by rights, given up.

you need to understand that the bulk of journalism or 'infotainment' is in fact fiction.

possible exceptions- some music reviews(but by no means all), and the basic facts behind "big" stories (like 9/11- someone did in fact fly some planes into some buildings)

there is no "for real"

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:17 pm

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I think you'll find that the Datsuns had their first single out and good rotation on bNet stations within 3 years of being together and, from personal experience, were getting good crowds at their gigs even before this. Bowie I can't comment on because I wasn't there.

And in answer to Clownie's post, yes, I am a negative prick. So what!?

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 12:08 pm

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I think Youll find that the Datsuns toured as trinket for some time before supergyration got licensed to KFC. I was one of the two people and a dog at one of their gigs, at fairfield college in 1998.

as for Bowie you didnt have to be "there" just read a book or two.He was booed offstage more than once, and first started aperating around 1965-66.Space oddity was a fluke hit in 1969, and he was nearly bankrupt in 1973 when Ziggy stardaust happened.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:46 pm

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They formed in '97 and started getting the national attention they deserved in around '99/2000 (2-3 years by my count) which was when they changed their name. It was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure that's about right. As for the rest, can't argue with the facts bro and I'm not here to argue the facts....just share an opinion...which is still that bands writing crap about themselves comes across as just that, crap.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:47 pm

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but thats my point.
Bowie in 73 wrote plenty of "crap" about himself the idea being that if you acted like a star, then you would become one.and he did.and so has everyone else.

I've read dozens of record company bios and they talk up the artist just the same if you were Guns'n Roses from LA or Bum Gravy from pitcairn

The Datsuns tried to be an indie-jangle type band, flirted with elctro/techno and then found a successful rock thing.

no-one wants to hear the "truth" thats what everyday life is for.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:19 pm

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Agree with Trev entirely on this one.

Spin is a major part of entertainment, without a good bullshit machine who's going to know you're out there? Take the likes of PT Barnum and their bullshit machine was staggering... Take the likes of NBC universal with their spambots of years past "Hey kids I'm Mike the intern at Universal and I get to hear a lot of good music- man have you heard the buzz about <insert band here>" Myspace is just one massive spamming operation if you break it down - I'm pretty sure I know the 4000 or so people on Ishtar's myspace about as well as Dream Theater know the million or so (or whatever crazy number they have) on theirs. End of the day no spin it comes down to the tree in the forest thing.

self deception? You get no shortage of artists out there (Brian May immediately comes to mind) who freely admit a big part of the reason they got anywhere was due to a massive amount of self belief. Some times it is justified, sometimes not but the bands who do warrant claims of "The next big thing" or "Sounds only like themselves" or "The salvation of a stale music scene" say things like this- it sets up a template for all others to follow.

A band who advertises themselves. "We play good pub rock, there are exactly as many bands better than us as worse but my mum loves to hear us play and my cousin Roger thinks with a bit of practice I could be as good as CC Deville or maybe even those cats from Linkin Park" um yeah I don't think I'd invest the dollars on a night out for that somehow.

Something real about my music? I don't see myself giving up my day job to be a mainstream success ie living out the back of a van on about $5k a year profit from cd sales, at 22 when I was offered a chance to play hired gun to one of NZs better known successes I knocked it back for that reason. I don't make music cause I 'want to', I love making music and am very good at it (more than a few people consider me in the top echelon of NZ guitarists, some even like my lyrics, songs and kick arse band) but it is a case of it being something I must do. To reach the dizzying heights of Hootie and the Blowfish, Rick Astley, Hanson or any other one hit wonder is not the point- it is the outlet and it is the getting out there and making noise for a room full of people.... it is about getting friends to call in and request our music when we get airplay and being open and honest about it- everyone does it, even before the Beatles had released Love Me Do Brian Epstein went to all the local record stores and asked the sales ppl when the beatles song was up for sale... The making of music is a noble thing whether it is onstage to 15,000 ppl (have been there once) or to six ppl at a singer/songwriter tuesday night gig, for that matter a bunch of old cats jamming away to Hauraki playlist in the garage for their own edification...
By comparison should all theatre companies just give up on doing plays cause there is a good chance their production of MacBeth will never play the globe, small ma and pa kettle business should just fold and go work for the man cause they'll never be Bill Gates, or sunday golfers pack away the clubs cause they'll never be Tiger Woods?

The question really shouldn't be 'Why are some people in bands such wankers?" it should be why does anyone give a shit what anyone thinks in Granity, Kumara Junction, Barrytown or any other West Coast shithole where half the populace have webbed feet and play the banjo while uncle Zeke whittles wood?

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:49 am

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I've seen you play once. You're technically gifted but your song writing's flat. Read posts of yours on other forums, always very long and openly aggressive. Can't say I don't admire your passion and conviction. Don't think your band's very good though. You almost epitomise what I've been talking about:



Comments about sound are purely objective so no problems with anyone doing that, but what percentage of gig going punters in Auckland consider Ishtar one of the best live acts? Are you honestly trying to say that if I went to one of your gigs that there'd be punters there who weren't your mates who'd come specifically to see you? I guess hair metal's a bit of a novelty these days

Also I'm not a web footed West Coaster (nice imagery though). I'm just not the kind of weirdo who makes their personal information freely available to every would-be pyscho who posts on forums. But you don't give a shit what I say anyway, the 600 odd words you've just written are evidence of that

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:21 pm

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we've got our supporters and our detractors so you're probably right about not really caring what you think shuzbut, ... I kinda expect you feel the same bout me, thats cool

Some people think we're a very good live act, some of them not mates ask me that a year ago and I'd say the number was very respectable- a few months out of the loop and well lets say post 20/06 I should have an honest answer on that one... IMO our Jamie bassplayer era was as good as anyone out there in NZ, I do admit Greg bassist era had its flat spots seeing Greg would just stand on the spot and play... but the Jamie era was musically as tight as we ever have been + visually dynamic.. Even in Andrew bassplayer era we still owned at farmfest
On that theme name another band who did a circuit with two firedancers?

Hair metal?? when did you see us, back in 2002? we haven't been that in a long time..

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:41 am

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Rrrright...

So what, should bands just stop bothering if they don't make it straight away?

Bands shouldn't advertise themselves in a way that makes them look worth going to?

In short. Don't bother trying at anything because you'll probably fail, and don't bother coming across as confident in your work either.

The wise shuzbut has spoken

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:18 pm

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Nah bro, not what I'm saying.

I think after about 3+ years of slogging their guts out and making little progress bands need to have a good long think about their future. It's like any job, business or relationship. Sometimes it's a good idea to cut your losses and move on. If you have enough conviction and passion to keep going then "perhaps" things might work themselves out, but it's pretty rare to see this happen especially in New Zealand.

By all means bands should advertise themselves in a way that looks good. But I think they should avoid stretching the truth when it's plainly obvious to those in the know (e.g. A & R people etc) that what they're saying about themselves is load of bollocks. Some A & R people are cunts and will take you to task on this.

I'm not wise. I'm just an opinionated dick head That's just my prerogative.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:27 pm

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Shuzbut, you're not in a band so telling bands "how it is" just ain't gonna wash.

What's this stuff about "making it" anyway? As if "making it" is the be all and end all of being in a band. I'd rather be making music that makes me happy rather than write some bring 3-chord verse/chorus/verse fluff that the Rock or Classic Hits will play.

I've been in bands that go nowhere, I've played those shitty clubs and noticed that our audience base hasn't grown one iota. Where do you go from there? Start writing music that's deliberately contrived and marketed towards the bulk market (teenagers)??? Compromise your integrity and belief in what you do, just for "success"? No, you keep on keeping on, as long as you have faith in your product.



Or re-think your plan of attack. You're suggesting quitting something if it's not working out. This attitude is utterly defeatist.

Sometimes the "big break" comes straight away, sometimes it comes 10 years down the line.

Have you even stopped to think that many bands are quite happing making niche music for a select few? Technical death metal for example... it's not going to sell, never has, never will, but people still start bands and do gigs, because they enjoy it, not because they're hell-bent on "making it".

You make it sound as if just having good songs is enough. IT ISN'T. It's not like there's a talent scout lurking at every pub gig, just waiting to sign the band with the "goods". I've seen insanely awesome bands stay under the radar forever, and I've seen really average stuff go straight to the top. It's a mixed bag. The bottom line is you have to talk yourself up all the time, constanly bombard people with your awesomeness in every way possible, it's called marketing (trust me, I'm a musician who works in advertising!). Sure, you can see right through the "we're so great talk" - good for you... but at the end of the day bands need it.



What??? Rubbish.

If I quit three years into my relationship with my girl when things got tough, I wouldn't be here 9 years later, happy and still in love, ready to spend our lives together!

Simply quitting because you don't have a number 1 single after 20 shows is just retarded. Or is that how you roll through life? Chuck it in the too hard basket because you can't see any immediate gain in the end?

This message was edited by K.I.N.G on Wed May 28, 2008 1:28 pm.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:03 pm

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Did I hit a nerve with you bro

You're right, I'm not in a band, but I have been. Some of those bands are still together and haven't had any recognition. My views aren't those of a layman.

"Making it" is up to your own measure of success. My own measure has nothing to do with writing deliberately contrived music. It's about experimenting with what I do until I hit on a formula that connects with my audience. This can be done without sacrificing my artistic integrity. It doesn't matter what kind of music it is or how it comes across to people stuck in the box of their chosen genre, I've always appreciated originality.

I roll through life telling it how I see it. That doesn't always go down well with people but I don't lose sleep over it. A bit of inward thinking never goes astray.

I'm happy for you mate but TMI about your love life. I'm just talking about music

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:23 pm

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No, but you used relationships as a direct comparison.



15 years involved in Christchurch music bro, struggling, and hanging out with other struggling musicians... damn right I'm gona tell you to get back in your box



That's still deliberately trying to nab a target market, which is NOT what making music is about.

This message was edited by K.I.N.G on Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 pm.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:52 pm

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If people turn up to a gig of their own accord not knowing what to expect and they make a connection with the music, how is that a deliberate attempt at anything by the artist? You almost make it sound like there's something wrong with people liking your music.

I went to the Jose Gonzales gig in Auckland the first time he came to NZ with very little knowledge of what I was about to hear. Blew my mind! Happened again when I went to see Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings. The first time it happened was in the late 90's when I saw Bjork live in concert. 3 very different artists, and I can't be totally sure about this, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on the fact that they didn't sit down and write a bunch of songs specifically for the crowds on those particular nights

Music's about whatever I or anyone else wants it to be about. That's what's so cool about it.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:18 pm

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Oh Christ now you're talking around in circles and completely missing my point.

My point was that as soon as a band starts changing their songs SOLELY for "what the punters will think of it" - the music suffers for it.

But no, you go off on a tangent about live bands you've gotten into.



EXACTLY. So telling other bands how to do it is completely redundant. But then again, everything you said after "why are some people in bands such wankers?" is redundant.

Oh, I forgot this piece of gold:



That's just it. Most People don't "just decide" to go to gigs. Without some form of advertising, people won't show up at all. That's why you need sh*t talk. If you say, "for 5 dollars you can see a bunch of Aucklanders drinking beer and standing by the wall" nobody will go, you need to tell people they're gonna get their ass rocked like never before.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:59 pm

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Haha! I'm not telling anyone to do anything. Judging by the amount of posts you¡¦ve made on this forum you¡¦d be well aware that people in forums get their backs up easily and are more then willing to spend hours of their day pulling posts apart and taking the writers to task on every miniscule detail. Can¡¦t be arsed with it so just about everything I've written starts with "I think" or "my opinion is". Better to throw stones while sitting on the fence than standing on one side of it.

What do you mean by people don¡¦t decide to go to gigs? Do you subconsciously buy tickets and turn up to venues bro? Now I¡¦m just being a smart arse! ƒº

I¡¦m taking it you mean, people don¡¦t just wander in off the street to gigs. Well, I do. It's good for the soul to wander into town in the weekend and discover new bands. I think more people should do it.

Advertising¡¦s sometimes the only outlet to get peoples interest but are you doing yourself more good than harm by hyping yourself up to be more than you are? On band posters I only ever put the basic details of the gig (time/place etc), a good graphic and perhaps a description of the bands music. Radio ads are pretty similar (obviously no graphic though). Never went down the road of saying ¡§We will rock your arse off¡¨. Didn¡¦t stop people from coming though, or getting their arses rocked off. Personally if I saw that on a poster I¡¦d think ¡§wankers¡¨, but you already knew that ƒº

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:59 pm

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There you go again, off on another tangent.

Where did posters come into the discussion? It was band internet bio's you were picking on in the frist instance.



Hours? I get 15 minutes for morning and afternoon tea.

This message was edited by K.I.N.G on Wed May 28, 2008 5:00 pm.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:27 pm

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Classic! I don't remember referring to you when I wrote that

You don't seem to have much of interest to add on the subjects discussed in this thread anymore apart from nitpicking comments so your falling entertainment value is now at a level where it's not worth responding.

Enjoy your afternoon tea.

RE: Why are some people in bands such wankers?
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 am

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ok. as i dnt frequent this site too often i have only just come across this thread now. f*cking deep. i dnt wanna interupt the flow of ur guys descussion (or argument) so i'll just have my personal view on it and leave u guys to do the rest.
first off im not sure if this is just about new zealand music or music in genral coz u guys seem to be focusing on the new zealand side of things.
i can totally see were both sides of this debate are coming from. i have to agree with shuzbut that there are some serious egotistical wankers (iv met some) that go around thinking they are hot shit coz they r simply in a band. nothing turns me off a band more than if i c them being jerks off the stage ESPECIALLY if their band is average (in my opinion) to begin with. i do prefer bands which have humble and down to earth people in them which become famous not for their antics but for their pure talent.
antics onstage is ok with me but when they start revolving their life around them selves then i think it becomes a problem.
having said that i dont think that pushing for ur band to get gigs, deals and airplay is bad or wankery thing at all. especially wen the band is first starting up. and i do feel that bands in this country have an especially difficult time getting anywere in the industry. i know some bands with amazing talent that work hard at what they do and i can just about garantee that they would get a deal over seas. this is why many of our biggest bands are the ones that have moved over seas.